Edit: The following post reflects a continuing change in views. To hear my heart at the other end of the spectrum you may want to check out This Post first.This article is a good chance to go back to some old debates. Sitting on the couch at the Goatshed the other night I got into an interesting discussion with some of my flatmates from The Street City Church. The Street are doing an amazing things to support the upcoming Greg Laurie Crusade coming to Wellington later this year. This, juxtaposed with my sometimes cynical view on these kinds of events, led to some really interesting discussions. After talking for a while we decided to watch the promo DVD sent out to local churches.
After seeing this I have no doubt God is moving in the Greg Laurie crusades. Since 1990 over 3 million people have attended his rallies and over 264,000 of those came to the front and made a commitment to following Christ. But as the DVD ended, I was almost reduced to tears. Looking at these figures I have to ask, How many of those 264,000 are still following? The testimonies shared show people who are blown away by their experience of the living God, but was this experience enough? Did this experience hold them through the dry times, through the wilderness, through the ups and downs of walking the narrow way?
As I look through the information pack I can't help but be concerned. Three testimonies are shared - all of them by 'successful' pastors from the States. Particularly troubling is the testimony of Laurie's 'rise' to faith.
"...Now, more than 30 years have passed. That little Bible study became a thriving church that eventually spawned a radio program, a crusade ministry, and a television and internet ministry. I never could have dreamed what God would do when I first took that small step of faith."
So what can someone who makes 'that small step of faith' expect? Can they expect a television and internet ministry? Can they expect the excitement of touring the world speaking to millions? Without a doubt this will be true for some, but for less than even 0.00001% of them. What if life turns to crap soon after the event? What if their calling is not one for superstardom, but instead one similar to Job? Can the dream of being 'someone great' hold them through the desert?
It is frighteningly dangerous how secular definitions of success have permeated into our understanding of what it means to follow Jesus. The gospels stress the importance of abandoning self to serve others, yet the Harvest information pack reflects a larger problem accross Christendom where we elevate speakers, preachers and ministry leaders as super-heroes of the faith. The gospel is being distorted on the basis that the greatest expression of faith is faith displayed in public (see: Mr. Harvey's earlier post).
What happened to counting other more significant than yourself, to the first being last, and to the greatest among us being the servant of all? Quite simply, cleaning shit is not sexy, it's sure as hell not successful. On the same logic what are we to say for the person who comes to faith in the midst of terminal illness? Have they lived a sub-significant Christian life because their influence never went further than the end of a hospital bed?
I cannot stess enough that this is not angst with the crusade itself. I believe in what the Harvest Crusade do, and I believe it is changing lives. Given the opportunity, I will hopefully have some of my friends and family come along with me to the event. My issue is with what this medium of evangelism models. As the year goes on more and more brochures will slide accross our desks, and they'll nearly all look the same. A photo of a charismatic, good-looking pastor (one hand outstretched, microphone in the other). More and more these brochures arrive with almost no information about vision or biblical purpose, instead pastor
While I respect them, the words of Rob Bell, Mike Pilavachi, Tony Campolo, Brian Houston, Paul De Jong, or Greg Laurie are not enough for me. And more importantly, neither is the dream I could one day become like them. I am sickened by a culture that elevates pastors and leaders above the rest, I'm sick of conferences which give them their own special seating area to bathe in the glamour and glory or their rise to fame. Most ministry workers I talk to are repulsed by this idea as well, and would happily trade their opportunity to dine with the guest speaker for the chance to see their youth know the true character of God just a little more.
What are we modelling? Does the discourse surrounding these conferences really reflect the character of God? And if we allow ourselves to be bought by the lie that a life with God is a life in the spotlight, how can we ever truly know what it means to walk in the steps of Jesus? My hope and prayer for the upcoming crusade is that many would come to know Jesus, that they would make a decision for the first time that they will continue to make every day for the rest of their lives. That this crusade would birth a new generation of Christians with a passion to humbly die for Christ, and not for a chance on the pulpit.
We can do better.
17 comments:
Oh man.... whenever this discussion comes up I never know whether to bite my tongue or go all guns blazing.
So it's so long... will find another outlet next time :-)
When I read a post like this I fluctuate from empathising, to being infuriated, to just being plain frustrated - and not at the same things you're 'sickened' by, but that this argument comes up again.
I'm gonna try my best to be as wise as possible, but more importantly, I'm just going to be honest...
1. "So what can someone who makes 'that small step of faith' expect? Can they expect a television and internet ministry?"
You're jumping the gun to even assume that's what Laurie is saying. I read the exact same paragraph and it says to me 'God only knows what crazy stuff he may have ahead for us', nothing about it having to be a pulpit role or anything of the like. Often this same assumption is made that all these speakers claim that theirs is the 'higher' lifestyle, one we should all aim for.
Balls to that, of those you mentioned and countless others I've read, heard, watched it's never that which is portrayed - they encourage to turn to your Maker to find your calling, and if it's preaching, then great, if it's aid work then awesome, if it's arts, fantastic... where is it declared that we are all aiming for the pulpit?
2. "What happened to counting other more significant than yourself, to the first being last, and to the greatest among us being the servant of all?"
"I am sickened by a culture that elevates pastors and leaders above the rest"
Since when is preaching the Word not service to others? if GOD has called them into that role, then why do WE have any issue at all with them being there and why the problems with them being commended for it?
Jesus left the disciples with a clear directive, go and tell the world about him. I know that you respect these guys, so let's give credit where it's due and honour the man of God. I'm not saying MORE THAN other servants, but why get upset about a preacher getting props?
And on the reserved seating thing - come on, that is petty, I really hope people in ministry don't have a problem with this??
Look, at your wedding, who do you give good seats - your family, because they are important & have been influential in your life. Relate that to meetings or conferences...
Or how about this thought, if I am preaching, who do I want nearby? how about others who have high faith for Jesus to move, others who have been where I am, others who share the burden for whatever the vision of the conference is. I want the pastors near me- they can have the front rows. you may say it adds to this idea that theirs is a life we want to emulate (to get to the good seats), well, if we can't hold up our pastors and Christian leaders as role models who can we?
Jesus. of course, but what about all the people there that can't see him?
come on. don't let these bickering questions of hierarchy stop us from moving forward God's cause. You said yourself, you're still going to take friends along - so what are you upset about?
i think perhaps BK, although Scottie may take his friends along anyway- there is the expectation of followup to the 'event' (on scotties part)- an idea that perhaps this article is questioning? followup on an 'experience'?
and would you be wanting your pastors and people in similar scenario to you in the front row because delivering the sermon is about you or about Jesus?
As much as I agree with most of what Scottie has said, we have to be careful not to go so anti-leadership... the strong kiwi trait of pulling down the tall poppies is not a Godly characteristic. In regards to this topic, I have written an essay on pride called "Is "Pride" Really Evil?" on one of my blog sites (http://thinkstreet.blogspot.com/2007/03/is-pride-really-evil.html). Have a read if you’re interested.
I have respect for most of the pastors I know. I wouldn't say they are more or less important than my close friends. They just have a different roll in my life. But as far as crusades go I think it needs to be more human relationship orientated.
Hey 'The Kyle'.
Like what you've got to say on that 'Is Pride Really Evil?' post. Not sure I agree with it entirely, but definitely leaves me thinking. I'm gonna post something soon on some stuff I read recently in Brian Mclaren's 'A Generous Orthodoxy' on Personal Salvation, some of your pride stuff ties in nicely.
Thanks for the dialogue
Scottie
I think on a basic level, having such people in front row seats whilst sharing the Word of God is helpful for one's confidence...
but aside from that, and far more important, surely having like-minded people around you as you try to impart God's Word to others is beneficial? people who have faith that God is going to move in the meeting...
totally agree on the follow up thing though. That's where crusades, conferences, events must make it their utmost importance to ensure follow up for people who have that exciting experience there. i firmly believe the local church is the hope of the world - that is why Jesus left us a mandate to build it... so the churches need to be active in making sure that lifelong commitment to discipleship happens after one-off events.
Ahh, nothing like a good post without some healthy debate.
Good one Scottie, keep it up
"Debs said...
Ahh, nothing like a good post without some healthy debate.
Good one Scottie, keep it up"
Hear hear :-)
Wow Scottie, your Blog has been so quiet lately I almost stopped coming by.
BK, you've been prolific on the comments pages lately bro! Really good to see. I love the dialouge that we've been having around the various places lately (in fact I've been trying to bait you a bit from my enviro-christian blog, but you seem to have been very disciplined!! - LOL)
The issue of crusades is a massive one for sure. In fact, the debate really centers around the issue of salvation. What is salvation? Is the old phrase "once saved, always saved" really true? Is it enough in this life to just be saved? What are we saved from? What are we saved into?
Traditionally, most of us protestants have preached a message of grace that is depenadnt only on a single decision. This theology has, (IMO) fuelled the decisions based evangelism that of a massive part of Christian culture. But aspects of this evangelical effort may be misplaced, even if (as BK argues well) the intentions of the promoters of this kind of message are acting out of honest intentions and pure motive.
I think we have to ignore massive chunks of scripture to let our theology stop at salvation. Just lok at the book of James (which Martin Luther not surprisingly was not a fan of). Jesus' also calls us to a greater life than that. Discipleship. Thats where BK and Scotties' notion of follow-up beocmes so important.
Unforunately many fast growing Christian communities imply don't have the depth and number of mature christians to invest in discipleship (which is a real shame). So the growth in numbers can often outstrip the growth of Kingdom.
My only real negative attitude about mega-christian culture is the imagery and marketing tactics that go towards promoting it. I kow the heart and intentions of 99% of us for God's glory and not our own. Unfortunatley we have in many cases adopted a cultural norm of communicatino that exalts human activity and uses human emotional stimuli to generate a response! But as yet, I have no other alternativers to offer, so my criticism at this stage cannot be constructive. Shame on me.
P-style
ha... maybe i haven't been disciplined, just afraid?! haha. I'm sure I will comment on enviro-Christian soon...
great points & many are my thoughts exactly. It is a concern that numbers rising faster than discipleship can happen. It's an exciting problem I guess - that people are being attracted to jesus faster than the Chirch in many parts can handle, but it's still a real issue and one Christians should be constantly challenged by >> to go deeper yourself so that you can give out to newer believers.
and the issue with imagery & emotional persuasiveness is one I share as well. I think there is a place for the language of today, it's crucial & I think most people here agree that we shoot ourselves in the foot if we don't adapt (why do many of us make such rad modern music??). But again it's the person of Jesus, it's the truth of God that people need to see & hear - not flashy marketing.
God help us to keep him front & centre
"It's an exciting problem I guess - that people are being attracted to jesus faster than the Chirch in many parts can handle, but it's still a real issue and one Christians should be constantly challenged by >> to go deeper yourself so that you can give out to newer believers."
Good point BK. A word of caution though (just to be tricky) what Jesus are they beign attracted to? A Jesus that can do anything? Yes that is good. But a Jesus that will do anything? Perhaps not so good. A Jesus who comforts the spirit? Yes. A Jesus who comforts the body and the wallet? Perhaps not. A Jesus who suffered? Yes. A Jesus who takes all our suffering away? No.
etc. . . . I sometimes wonder if people would make decisions if they
had good information about how tough and ambiguous following Jesus can be at times.
I think that is the role of discipleship... to clarify who Jesus is, what He does, how it affects our lives - and that is an on-going process too, not just an initial occurrence.
This is not to say that people should be duped into being attracted to Jesus and then we re-tell them what it means. Rather, that people are attracted to the Jesus that can do anything, and Jesus who has done what he did on Calvary.
any misconceptions most definitely need to be ironed out - but that is discipleship, a lifelong, growth journey.
Wow some nice dialogue happening here. To be honest I also really struggle with the crusade type of event. I think its pretty easy to get carried away with the impressive size and of the crusade, and I really struggle to see how the Jesus of the crusade can be reconcilled with the Jesus of the every day, the jesus where that asks you to take a cross, to take up a towel and serve. As the saying goes, "The medium is the message". What are we communicating with this medium? I really like the statement that Scotty made: "It is frighteningly dangerous how secular definitions of success have permeated into our understanding of what it means to follow Jesus".
However in the same breathe its frustrating because these sorts of intiatives are easy targets, and the last thing I would want to be know as is a person who is "anti-evangalism". My old man is on the board of this particular event for crying out loud! The people organising this are amazing people.
Im concerned that many churches and individuals will see this as another step to "taking wellington for Jesus", another quick fix dream with words like "revival" thrown around alongside other jargon.
I wonder what the effect would be if we put the same amount of planning, money, and energy into practically serving the city with projects and intiatives that just hooked people up. Shesh, just the thought gets me excited. Check out http://www.soulinthecity.co.uk/ for an idea of the impact that these sorts of intiatives can have. Or have a look at the Soul Survivor NZ website and look at the "Soul Durban" intiative. (shameless plug)
I also think the culture of having the "pastors" up the front is a pretty strange. Ive sat down and yarned with some pretty big names on the scene, and they are as messed up as the rest of us. On top of this, it re-inforces the idea that being a pastor is a more spiritual ocupation than being a cleaner. We need to model the upside down kingdom that Jesus introduced far more, to affirm and honour those who are often overlooked in our world, and sadly often in our churches.
But let me be the first to say that I think we need to start dialoging about how we communicate the best news we could give someone. I suspect that we would probably wind up with the conclusion that the most effective evangalism is a friend sharing life with a friend. It just doesnt sound that flash...
Bunch of other thoughts, will save it for the latte at ernesto.
nice Sam, thanks for weighing in, very worthwhile.
and, as expected, solid points :-)
Fully see what the issue is with putting all your eggs in the basket of big flashy events. that really does mess up the perception of what is successful.
I guess I'm concerned that we could miss out on the incredible opportunities that big events provide... that if we write them off because they are flash and have wide appeal and assume that they will therefore be useless in the long run, we've missed out on the chance to make good.
Yes, if money was reallocated it could do some awesome things - but I don't think we have to choose between one or the other... events like this can mobilise change & inspire. When an army goes to war (Biblical times & now) the troops are rallied first - a big event can evoke change, inspire dry hearts & cause those things like community activity to happen.
It's about how we utilise such events.
with the pastors thing - very good call re. it being heralded as 'more spiritual'. And no debating that pastors aren't as human as the rest. The thing is, like I said, it's OK to acknowledge the fact that someone has devoted their life to wanting to share God's Word and, in general, honour is a good thing... I think that's where many of us struggle, is with honour - something Jesus urges, but we are unsure how to apply.
chur chur everyone, you guys are legends.
when's that ernesto coffee? ;)
OK... here's one my biggest issues with these 'crusade' type events (considering the history of crusades - why would we name our events this??)...it seems to me that churches now want to run every Sunday and every service like a mini event/crusade... big flash music, lights, cameras, pastors sitting up the front (shoting 'preach it' or 'yeah, c'mon, that's good').. the whole shibang... and it pertpetuates the myth that anyone who now steps up onto the stage is on a different spiritual level or plane than everyone else. And the church is re-inforcing this fable by setting different standards for people who participate basically depending on how close to the stage you get or how much time you spend on the stage. For example... if you wanna be on the car parking team, go and grab the yellow coat-there's about 7 hanging up in the closet. If you wanna be on the resource room, go to the 'church intro course' and check the roster cos you're on it for the next 3 weeks. If you wanna be on the music team, do the intro course, come consistently for the next 6 months and take some of the muso's out for a coffee. To talk on stage we'll have to make you accountable to someone as well and we expect you're tithing..... and so the levels go. Finally you get to the pastors and guest speakers who are so far above us that people actually fall over each other to try and 'bless' them... pay for their meals, buy them stuff, park their cars.... don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to begrudge anyone of their right to make a living but there is something in the whole culture of this that doesn't feel right to me. People are willing to up-root their families, leave their jobs, move country if they get a word from a pastor that they should go the church in London, or go to bible college, or plant a church in Samoa.... not necessarily bad things but are they 'God' things?
I agree with P-Style that these events and the way church is being run is focused on the belief that salvation is a one off event and if we can get more people to raise their hands and repeat a prayer, then we are extending the kingdom. If we start seeing salvation as 'saving people from sin and the consequnces of sin' then the focus shifts to actually being involved in peoples lives, sharing life and experiences with them, helping people break destructive cycles, attitudes, mind-sets, relationships... then we may see resources being distributed differently. Our communities need to know that we care just as much for their physical, day-to-day situations and circumstances as we do about their spiritual well-being.
There's a saying 'People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care' ...I'll say 'People don't care to know God until they know that God cares'...
Scottie, this one's developing into post of the year!
Others,
One minor point I want to pickup on, not that it has really been significant in this discussion. Isn't the main reason that pastors etc.. sit up the front is because of the logistics of needing to be close ot the stage.
As for the other things mentioned by "the rock", I agree with you regarding the levels of spirituality that implicitly develop in a "levels of significant service" church culture.
The real heros in my opinion are the guys that spend their weekends end evenings carting gear around and lifting stageing units etc.. Pastors may say that they have alot of work to do, but they get paid for it for freak's sake. That's their job, just like the rest of us. The volunteers do it SIMPLY for the love of the community. Those guys should be recognised every single day.
Folks,
In the second paragraph of an article here (at internetmonk): http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-choice-the-treasure-calvinism-and-the-language-of-believing
There are three links to some writing on the notion of public invitation (i.e. altar calls) for salvation. Well worth the read if you have time ;)
I know this is late, but who cares.
A while ago i read a comment on here about how if we are out to lunch with one of the pastors or guest speakers we fall over backwards to pay for their lunch/meal/drinks etc.
That comment really played on my mind, and still does, in fact it makes me feel a bit stink.
I went for lunch with some visiting pastors recently and at the end of the meal, scraped together every cent I could to pay for their meal. Then i snuck off without them knowing id paid and could picture it when they went to pay and discover it had been taken care of..."Wow, that Debs, bless her, she's such a giver even though she isnt very financial, thank you lord for Debs" etc etc.
Meanwhile, i have been for lunch with a drummer from the worship team, had coffee with the AV dude, sushi with one of the foodbannk people, and icecream with one of the Zeal dudes.
And did I offer to pay for their food? Yeah, probably some of the times. I do like to shout a feed. But most of the time, i probably didn't even consider it. Why? Well, it was just the drummer, just the AV dude...etc etc.
I feel really ashamed about that to be honest. That i put the pastors "up there" and the rest down there.
I realise theres nothing wrong with blessing pastors by paying and all that jazz - im just real thankfull to having my eyes opened to a "they're more important than you so i'll bust a gut to pay for them" attitude that i didnt know existed in my life.
Ka kite ano.
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